Fix cybran T3 shielding

Protect

have better shields<hives

waffelzNoob

@melanol said in Fix cybran T3 shielding:

Strong elsewhere.

Balance team thankfully doesn't have the same mindset as you, as they buffed the aeon frigate despite aeon having the strongest destroyer.

@protect said in Fix cybran T3 shielding:

have better shields<hives

T1 engy 52/5 = 10.4 mass/bp --- T1 hive 350/20 = 17.5 mass/bp
T2 engy 130/13 = 10 mass/bp --- T2 hive 700/37 = 18.91 mass/bp
T3 engy 312/32 = 9.75 mass/bp --- T3 hive 1050/50 = 21 mass/bp

T3 engy is more than 2x efficient than a T3 hive at this point. Hives do have longer range and don't suffer from pathfinding issues, but in arty wars you generally have most important stuff under 1 or 2 shields, and assisting one or both with T3 engies is completely viable

Besides, tech can be shared. Having hives can be nice, but the existence of hives do not make T3 engineers completely redundant. Other faction's T3 shields however do make cybran shields completely redundant, and pretty much forces cybran players to ask for other tech if it comes to arty wars.

I've also sandboxed that Cybran shields cost more mass to repair than aeon (didn't test UEF or sera).
After taking T3 pgen explosion damage (5500), 10 Hives used 992 mass to repair an ED5, while they used 906 mass to repair an aeon T3 shield.

ComradeStryker

How much cheaper are you suggesting the ED5 be?
-500 mass?
-1,000 mass?

~ Stryker

waffelzNoob

@comradestryker idk, up to balance team. It should probably be comparable to UEF's 3300 since HP and range are both quite similar, if im not mistaken

ComradeStryker

Any specific reduction in mass / resources that you have in mind?
5%? 10%? 15%?

I like your idea of making the ED5 the standard blueprint, however...
I'm not too sure you want to increase the Cybran's Mass to SHP efficiency, dramatically.
Cybrans, even with their higher mass cost at a glance; they still have quite efficient shields for what they're worth.

For example, the UEF has the least efficient shields with their high costs and low SHP to compensate.

Cybrans, may have high mass costs, but their SHP is higher than that of a UEF shield.

~ Stryker

waffelzNoob

It's 16.5k for cyb to 17k for uef, while cyb costs 4260 and uef 3300

A Former User

@waffelznoob said in Fix cybran T3 shielding:

Balance team thankfully doesn't have the same mindset as you, as they buffed the aeon frigate despite aeon having the strongest destroyer.

Exodus:

HP: 7500 > 7200
Range: 80 > 70

waffelzNoob

Exodus was so stacked it still is the strongest destroyer lol

ComradeStryker

@waffelznoob said in Fix cybran T3 shielding:

It's 16.5k for cyb to 17k for uef, while cyb costs 4260 and uef 3300

Is the extra mass worth an instant refresh on the SHP?
I say it is very much worth it. Cybrans have one of the best shields, because of that ability.
They upgrade, and they refresh their shield HP.

Granted, they're not the cheapest when it comes to their shields, but that gives them more flexability and longevity, especially when it comes down to protecting a valuable target.
The shield may have been depleted, and offline, but now it isn't.

If you make the ED5 Blueprint the standard instead of the ED4: Shield refreshes will be seen a few less times.
So, this could make a decent reason to lower the Cybran's Shields costs globally.

Perhaps, reduce the costs of the, ED4, and ED5 by 5% each? As a player upgrades them, the savings stack, meaning you end up saving more than just the 5% of each tier. That would make the ED5 shield about. 7-10% cheaper, in total?

~ Stryker

Mach

I would once again suggest removing instant full hp on shield upgrade and have it keep its current hp upon upgrade but get a new maximum

it makes no sense it does that and makes it better to keep shields on 99% upgrade to suddenly reload them if they get low by upgrading

FtXCommando

anybody doing that micro is a genetic freak

waffelzNoob

having enough bp to spend 1800 mass inbetween t3 arty/mavor shots sounds pretty unrealistic
it is a one-time thing, u can not repeat it for future arty shells
nobody does that with ED4 -> ED5 shields lol

5-10% is not enough. Give me one good reason as to why T3 cybran shields should be both weaker and more expensive.

ThomasHiatt

UEF is strong alpha faction and cybran is weak nerds.

Mach

weak nerds... with lasers

Protect

@waffelzNoob bro i think you should be on the balance team. enough said, you are right ahah

Blodir

Only tangentially related and idk if I'm the only one who thinks this, but shield assisting with 10 hives is lame af. Building a good simcity with lots of t3 shields should be more efficient than putting ur mavor under 1 shield assisted by 10 hives

Blodir

@blodir said in Fix cybran T3 shielding:

Only tangentially related and idk if I'm the only one who thinks this, but shield assisting with 10 hives is lame af. Building a good simcity with lots of t3 shields should be more efficient than putting ur mavor under 1 shield assisted by 10 hives

And while we're at it, the engis/hives shouldn't stop assisting once the shield is at full hp. It just forces u to stare at ur hives for the rest of the game in an arty/sat war

Jip

@blodir said in Fix cybran T3 shielding:

Only tangentially related and idk if I'm the only one who thinks this, but shield assisting with 10 hives is lame af. Building a good simcity with lots of t3 shields should be more efficient than putting ur mavor under 1 shield assisted by 10 hives

At the moment overspill works such that:

shield that is hit takes full damage
on top of that, surrounding shields take a bit of that damage too

But we can change it to:

shield that takes full damage disperses it over neighboring shields, depending on distance to that shield

That way it is better to have a lot of shields than having 1 shield being assisted. It would also add a lot of value to the lower tier cybran shields: they collapse sooner due to the dispersion damage and can recover quickly to support the higher tech shields again

And while we're at it, the engis/hives shouldn't stop assisting once the shield is at full hp. It just forces u to stare at ur hives for the rest of the game in an arty/sat war

Engine behavior I'm afraid

maudlin27

@blodir A related annoyance I have is that assisting shields isnt limited by eco meaning at high BP assistance levels you end up restoring much more shield health per mass than it costs (thus incentivising massive assistance further).

Blodir

@jip said in Fix cybran T3 shielding:

@blodir said in Fix cybran T3 shielding:

Only tangentially related and idk if I'm the only one who thinks this, but shield assisting with 10 hives is lame af. Building a good simcity with lots of t3 shields should be more efficient than putting ur mavor under 1 shield assisted by 10 hives

At the moment overspill works such that:

shield that is hit takes full damage

on top of that, surrounding shields take a bit of that damage too

But we can change it to:

shield that takes full damage disperses it over neighboring shields, depending on distance to that shield

That way it is better to have a lot of shields than having 1 shield being assisted. It would also add a lot of value to the lower tier cybran shields: they collapse sooner due to the dispersion damage and can recover quickly to support the higher tech shields again

And while we're at it, the engis/hives shouldn't stop assisting once the shield is at full hp. It just forces u to stare at ur hives for the rest of the game in an arty/sat war

Engine behavior I'm afraid

Sounds good imo, though requires some testing/experimentation. Shield overspill was added in FAF iirc, so I assume that it was added for a reason. I seem to recall it being added mostly about bulwark stacking making navy unkillable, but could be wrong. Mby bulwark stacking could be nerfed some other way...