4v4 TMM January 2023 Map Pool Tier List
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@waffelznoob said in 4v4 TMM January 2023 Map Pool Tier List:
honestly looking at all these tierlists, i dont think they're helping find what maps are good. the variety in responses is way too big. there's only a few maps that are considered shit by many, and most maps that are S+ for some are in "would rather draw" for others
there's always gonna be someone suffering
Bully, I think you are right. Blodir recently joined the TMM team and is looking to help, so he is taking on 4v4 pool next month.
I should let him explain his methods but from my POV it is going to help us see where preferences lie and how to move forward.
It would have been nice to show the whole 4v4 map list (here for reference) so everyone knows what we have to use at our disposal when we create the matchmaker pools.
My suspicion is that folks would change their ratings if they saw the entire list, but who knows! Hopefully this helps.
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@waffelznoob said in 4v4 TMM January 2023 Map Pool Tier List:
2304, havent played syrtis assault but i placed it where i'd put regular syrtis major
honestly looking at all these tierlists, i dont think they're helping find what maps are good. the variety in responses is way too big. there's only a few maps that are considered shit by many, and most maps that are S+ for some are in "would rather draw" for others
there's always gonna be someone suffering
I find the info valuable. Eg. I have never played or Virmire, but there's some clear trends 1. high rating players on average are biased toward 20x20 maps over 10x10 and 2. yet virmire ranks consistently lowly compared to other 20x20 navy maps! For instance there's a night and day difference between virmire and metir.
Yes there's variance and indeed you can't please everyone, but patterns do emerge, based on which the map pool can be optimized.
Of course there are other factors too. For instance I think it's fair to give a small bias for top player's (yudi, pepsi, farms etc) map preferences. I believe a lot of the variety in preferences emerges from a lack of knowledge. Maybe a map that was rated highly has potential for unfun/imba/etc strategies that the reviewer didn't take into account as they may not have experienced such before. Perhaps they experience such a strategy in their next game and their view of the map is turned upside down. A top player may be able to catch problems before even playing the map.
Regardless, I still think that hearing player opinions is valuable: How complex should map geometry be? How much asymmetry between opposing slots is acceptable? How long should a game last? How much variance should there be in game length? What distances between players allow lower rating players to easily interact with their opponent? Are there visual aesthetics bad enough to be unacceptable? How much mex/reclaim is overwhelming for a new player, or does it matter at all? Do new players prefer turtly maps as astro/gap would suggest? It's difficult for a person (even a very experienced one) to give a satisfying answer to most of these questions when asked directly, but patterns can be inferred from analysis of data.
Games look very different and are certainly experienced very differently by players in different rating brackets. The obvious example would be a legendary cobalt valley game where a 600 rated player built a massfab farm in the corner of the map. But the effect exists more subtly than that too. For example back in 2014 I recall loving maps like canis and pyramid. Back then those maps were the high rating teamgame maps. So I can totally understand many players in the 1500+ bracket appreciating these maps, even though these days (as the respective tierlists show) players like me, yudi, farms, pepsi generally preferring larger maps with way more mex than canis. With some other rating brackets I'm a bit less knowledgeable about. What kind of map makes a good 1100 average game for instance?
General patterns can be inferred from the data of player preferences through thoughtful analysis. In the end it always comes down to a lot of choice from the part of whoever creates the map pool, but that doesn't mean their thought process can't be informed by the data.
Btw for what it's worth, for the most part the tierlists have so far been pretty much as expected. Perhaps the most interesting discovery for me has been the popularity of falcon stone river.
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This forum itself highlights the issue. Any map is a battlefield. The only thing that's needed is good rotation, and not the same 4 maps rotating every month because on top of that at least one will be Adaptive Point of Reason (Great map), or Seraphim Glaciers (Not the best 4v4 map).
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@blodir u are correct. Perhaps i jumped the gun too soon. However i am deeply saddened by you not including me in the list of TOP TIER PROS 🥺🥺🥺:this_saddens_me::this_saddens_me:
:this_saddens_me:frick snoops!
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@waffelznoob said in 4v4 TMM January 2023 Map Pool Tier List:
@blodir u are correct. Perhaps i jumped the gun too soon. However i am deeply saddened by you not including me in the list of TOP TIER PROS 🥺🥺🥺:this_saddens_me::this_saddens_me:
:this_saddens_me:Sorry
I think ur really good but u insulted my thread so I couldn't bring myself to include u 
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gg
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@waffelznoob said in 4v4 TMM January 2023 Map Pool Tier List:
@blodir u are correct. Perhaps i jumped the gun too soon. However i am deeply saddened by you not including me in the list of TOP TIER PROS 🥺🥺🥺:this_saddens_me::this_saddens_me:
:this_saddens_me:Bully getting bullied... tsk tsk !!
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This affront to SNF will not be tolerated!
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@blodir said in 4v4 TMM January 2023 Map Pool Tier List:
@waffelznoob said in 4v4 TMM January 2023 Map Pool Tier List:
@blodir u are correct. Perhaps i jumped the gun too soon. However i am deeply saddened by you not including me in the list of TOP TIER PROS 🥺🥺🥺:this_saddens_me::this_saddens_me:
:this_saddens_me:Sorry
I think ur really good but u insulted my thread so I couldn't bring myself to include u i didnt mean to insult ur thread nor ur ideas in general
i think this was a fun, creative and interactive way of garnering people's view on maps. 
clearly it worked as it received tons of traction 
NOTE: Ndera was not worthy of B tier. After a second experience on this map, I'll have to drop it to C or D tier.
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bully loses -> bad map
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@morax said in 4v4 TMM January 2023 Map Pool Tier List:
It would have been nice to show the whole 4v4 map list (here for reference) so everyone knows what we have to use at our disposal when we create the matchmaker pools.
Going through the above maplist, I got the impression that the list is rather incomplete. In my understanding, the list contains all(?) potential tmm 4v4 maps regardless if they are currently fit to use (e.g bugged mexes, terrain issues, bad spawns, not odd vs even...) or of questionable quality (gameplay, aesthetics). If the the mentioned list is used as argument that there are currently no other/better maps to draw from, then there should be a special focus to have a list which is as complete as possible (leaving out the super trash stuff ofc). That said, I think there are quiet some potential maps which are currently missing on this list.
Some potential maps which come to my mind (again, those may need to be fixed in one way or another):
- abandoned desertland
- adaptive adrastea
- adaptive grand canyon
- adaptive hutts clutch
- adaptive ivy valleys
- adaptive SR islands
- adaptive stogesgrad
- adaptive turtle beach
- blood mountains
- capella six
- frozen firefight
- hyperion
- krakens nest
- madness 2
- madness 8
- selkie mirror
I am not saying all of the above maps are super great and should be included in the 4v4 map pool - but then again, thats also true for quite some maps in the mentioned maplist above. Imo its important to have a good and "complete" overview of potential maps as a base of discussion.
Finally, if the state of finding good maps for tmm is so dire, perhaps a map making tournament for good 4v4 maps could help resolve that issue to some degree.
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capella six have tons of unbuildable mexes and obnoxious amount of dense reclaim, hutts and sr islands have very awkward path finding that makes them unplayable, krakens nest have some terrain issues but dont remember where.
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That may be the case and those maps would need to be fixed before they could even be considered for tmm. However, the maplist provided by Morax lists 18 maps (out of 88) having minor or major issues right now, so being fit to play is obviously not a prerequisite for maps to be on the list.
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@amygdala said in 4v4 TMM January 2023 Map Pool Tier List:
That may be the case and those maps would need to be fixed before they could even be considered for tmm. However, the maplist provided by Morax lists 18 maps (out of 88) having minor or major issues right now so being fit to play is obviously not a prerequisite for maps to be on the list.
Who is going to fix them?
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tmm : 1906
Good to see Falcon Stone River got fixed
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@ftxcommando then setons would be in E
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@freedom_ said in 4v4 TMM January 2023 Map Pool Tier List:
tmm : 1906
Good to see Falcon Stone River got fixed
Why would you say that if you put the map in the “E” category which is basically the worst rating??
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@morax
Because it was imba with the bottom team having an extra mex; It is generally good to see that maps are fixed regardless of whether I like them or not. Equally I think it is a nice map, but it is a 5v5, with the air spot unpopulated and the fact no one really knows what they are doing on it because of that makes me not want to play it in tmm.Therefore it gets an E.
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This is really helpful feedback to the team!
We have a limited amount of maps that work with the matchmaker as most authors never knew 4v4 would be the main form of pvp until this past year. To compensate for that, sometimes we use 5v5, 6v6, etc maps that are viable for play, and with the current trend in 1500+ wanting a lot more mexes it helps.
I have had games on falcon where people fight over who gets the “unused spawn” and it is frustrating.
Bare with us for a bit as we update our map lists and direct new content. I’m working on my own new 4v4 map and will take this advice when designing it.
Thanks a bunch for the detailed explanation. I wish everyone here would state why they rated certain maps in the best/ worst category.
Be well!
