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    Make t3 navy more exciting!?!

    Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Balance Discussion
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    • TurinturambarT Offline
      Turinturambar Balance Team
      last edited by

      Where do you even get the idea from that current T3 navy stage sub meta is significantly shaped by groundfire?
      Clearly the main "problem"/factor of sub balance are torpedo bombers (which can suicide mass efficiently into subs). Removing groundfire on subs will not impact this at all, what it will do though is making air dominace even more impactful on 20x20 navy maps.
      Considering subs are even faster than even frigs losing air would mean your could get your anti subs ships/subs immediatly torped after an airloss and your navy run down.
      Also did you consider any gamemodes that are not setons and decent execution from both sides (shif g in subs and keep them in a blob or just a clicking battleships to provide easy groundfire targets is not good execution)?

      Forumpros doing balance https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wTcguJZh3A .
      When a canis player remembers to build more than 3 units https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hjp8xJHuyA .

      A ValkiV 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • AurikoA Offline
        Auriko
        last edited by

        I thought this thread was about battleship health 🤔

        J 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
        • J Offline
          JazzFunkNoob @Auriko
          last edited by JazzFunkNoob

          @auricocorico groundfiring subs is the biggest navy has apparently. I get that subs don't really have a role atm. At least on setons. But battleships groundfiring is not the issue. I totally agree with turin here.

          It annoys me though that the only efficient counter to harms is groundfiring it.
          Torpedobombers can not kill it mass efficiently if you have well placed sams behind it that are out of range of battleships which don't push into harms range. Pretty sure every sub/destro gets absoluetly melted by harms as well.

          Groundfiring harms is just another navy apm drain that gives huge benefits and isn't fun at all. And depending on the faction it can take ages to kill them.

          I would prefer if they weren't groundfireable but had less hp so that suiciding torps into them would result in a 1:1 kill loss ratio.

          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • FemtoZettaF Offline
            FemtoZetta @biass
            last edited by

            @biass said in Make t3 navy more exciting!?!:

            Fire cannon for a full 66 seconds

            It only has ammunition for about 20s of fire though 4Head

            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
            • biassB Offline
              biass
              last edited by

              equip extended mag

              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
              • FemtoZettaF Offline
                FemtoZetta
                last edited by

                Back on topic, have you taken a look at other games with navy? In BAR for example navy seems a lot more interesting and subs can actually be useful, but they also don't piss their pants when adjusting balance and actually try out stuff.

                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • A Offline
                  ANALyzeNoob @Turinturambar
                  last edited by ANALyzeNoob

                  @turinturambar said in Make t3 navy more exciting!?!:

                  Where do you even get the idea from that current T3 navy stage sub meta is significantly shaped by groundfire?

                  @harzer99

                  Well I never said it was the biggest issue, just a problem. I'm sick of this misinterpretation that simply talking about an obvious problem implies it is the biggest problem.
                  It doesn't have to "significantly shape the meta" to be a broken game mechanic. We don't ban building factories underneath a transport dropping units because it often has a huge game deciding effect so often that it shapes the meta, it's because the game mechanic is broken.
                  Have you considered that maybe people are talking about it quite a lot because it is so many people find it problematic, regardless of how much of an overall impact it has on the game?

                  And: if people think groundfiring subs has such a tiny impact on the game anyway, then you should have no problem whatsoever with removing the mechanic from the game.

                  TurinturambarT 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                  • A Offline
                    ANALyzeNoob
                    last edited by ANALyzeNoob

                    RE hoverbombing:
                    Well the USA has had the Harrier since the 1980s(?), so it's not inconceivable for a super futuristic bomber to be extremely maneuverable and able to quickly stop, and actually hover.

                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • TurinturambarT Offline
                      Turinturambar Balance Team
                      last edited by Turinturambar

                      i was adressing valki with my post
                      (the guy who posted directly above me)

                      Forumpros doing balance https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wTcguJZh3A .
                      When a canis player remembers to build more than 3 units https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hjp8xJHuyA .

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                      • TurinturambarT Offline
                        Turinturambar Balance Team @ANALyzeNoob
                        last edited by

                        @corvathranoob said in Make t3 navy more exciting!?!:

                        And: if people think groundfiring subs has such a tiny impact on the game anyway, then you should have no problem whatsoever with removing the mechanic from the game.

                        also did you miss the part where I explained why it would change current balance in towards the worse?

                        Forumpros doing balance https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wTcguJZh3A .
                        When a canis player remembers to build more than 3 units https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hjp8xJHuyA .

                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • A Offline
                          ANALyzeNoob
                          last edited by ANALyzeNoob

                          Yeah, Valki said groundfiring subs is part of the meta. You incorrectly read that as "significantly shaping" the meta. Things can also be a small part of the meta. And the point here is that they are a small part, because subs suck, because groundfire exists.

                          I saw your argument, and I don't think it would make game balance worse. You're saying, we make a change that BUFFS subs, but they are still vulnerable to torps, so air and torps become more important because that will now be the way you have to counter them. Well, that's the point. Removing groundfire still only makes subs more viable, because you CURRENTLY can torp them just as easily. It doesn't sound like you think removing groundfire would make subs OP, just that this would only help make subs slightly more viable. Well, slightly more viable is better than zero more viable, when they are already significantly underpowered...and giving a small buff to an underpowered unit will improve balance rather than make it worse.

                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                          • ValkiV Offline
                            Valki @Turinturambar
                            last edited by

                            @turinturambar it helps to @[username] to make clear who you reply to.

                            No matter how big or small the problem, everyone agrees sub ground-fire is silly.

                            If subs are rendered immune to ground-fire, then this could massively alter the meta, even if it is in a desirable way. Making more changes at the same time only complicates things. So in patch N you make subs immune to ground-fire, in patch N+1 you revisit naval to see how things are and what now needs fixing.

                            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                            • TurinturambarT Offline
                              Turinturambar Balance Team
                              last edited by

                              how did you get to litterally everyone?

                              Forumpros doing balance https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wTcguJZh3A .
                              When a canis player remembers to build more than 3 units https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hjp8xJHuyA .

                              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                              • TheVVheelboyT Offline
                                TheVVheelboy
                                last edited by

                                By injecting the faf superiority complex into this discussion where 80% of the dudes for removing the groundfire are wanting it removed cuz muh realism and muh faf superior to other games.

                                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                • Dragun101D Offline
                                  Dragun101
                                  last edited by

                                  Just do the ASF armour solution. Give T3 Subs and Altantis something to heavily reduce damage frim battleship fire.

                                  *And increase speed of T1 Subs maybe I don’t know

                                  I’m a shitty 1k Global. Any balance or gameplay suggestions should be understood or taken as such.

                                  Project Head and current Owner/Manager of SCTA Project

                                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                  • TheWeakieT Offline
                                    TheWeakie Balance Team
                                    last edited by

                                    Everybody agrees valki is wrong

                                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                    • veteranasheV Offline
                                      veteranashe
                                      last edited by

                                      Isn't every aircraft in faf vtol? Anything vtol can hover bomb. While your hovering, your also completely helpless to aa.

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                                      • archsimkatA Offline
                                        archsimkat @TheWeakie
                                        last edited by

                                        @thewheelie said in Make t3 navy more exciting!?!:

                                        Hoverbombing bombers is more unrealistic than groundfiring subs and instead of 1 in every 200 games it happens 1 in every 2 games. Waiting for the HOVERBOMBING IS BROKEN AND UNREALISTIC thread, thanks

                                        Out of fuel planes hovering slowly instead of crashing to the ground is more unrealistic than groundfiring subs, and it happens in every game where someone (cough Tagada) uses select all fighters every time there is a single bomber somewhere. Waiting for the OUT OF FUEL PLANES SHOULD INSTANTLY CRASH thread, thanks

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                                        • FtXCommandoF Offline
                                          FtXCommando
                                          last edited by

                                          I'm just sitting here in the "I think the navy side of the game is probably the best balanced segment of the game" audience shocked that people are talking about it needing some total overhaul.

                                          FemtoZettaF 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                          • FemtoZettaF Offline
                                            FemtoZetta @FtXCommando
                                            last edited by

                                            ftxcommando said in Make t3 navy more exciting!?!:

                                            I'm just sitting here in the "I think the navy side of the game is probably the best balanced segment of the game" audience shocked that people are talking about it needing some total overhaul.

                                            It might be relatively balanced, but it's boring af to watch and to play. You just spam the same unit and there's no real potential for plays.

                                            archsimkatA 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
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