Points of Imbalance.
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I have indeed just now startet playing this game
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@FtXCommando said in Points of Imbalance.:
By the metric of mass efficiency. ML is the only one where you arguably can lose with equal mass investment. Even this could be argued is a good thing because ML holds the title as the easiest T4 to counter with more out of the box tactics.
Like it's basically the only T4 that can reliably be killed by rambo ACUs, it easily gets murked by any loss in air advantage. Point of it's efficiency in crushing swarms of T3 is that it auto dies to any other form of response.
I thought we were all on the same page here. I've been speaking of Bricks and Monkeylords with the expectation that everyone understands that they are just representatives from the classes of units that were thrown out of line. Representatives that are easy to test.
Patch 3696 changed an entire class of units, and did not touch another competing class of units.
Clearly the issue extends beyond the Brick and Monkeylord, or do you think that the balance team just happened to fix T3-T4 balance when it fixed T2-T3 balance by not doing a damn thing - like some kind of miracle everything just worked out perfectly.
Cut all these units effectiveness by 1/3, and lo and behold, that's exactly how off T3/T4 balance was right?
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The old game balance was not good. I have no idea why you framed this as though we should be striving to match the garbage late game balance of 2017.
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Also the game is balanced for 1v1 games.
Not some weird chokepoint teammaps -
@FtXCommando said in Points of Imbalance.:
The old game balance was not good. I have no idea why you framed this as though we should be striving to match the garbage late game balance of 2017.
Maybe I'm wasting my time here and should just hope that the SCU patch is enough to correct all this. We blindly stumbled into the problem we now have and will perhaps blindly stumble out of it.
The reason the pre-2018 balance between T3 and T4 should be respected is because it didn't result from just nerfing one class of units and carelessly disregarding how that affects its balance with another competing class. Someone put thought into it, and tried to keep assault experimentals from replacing T3 land formations.
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@herzer99 said in Points of Imbalance.:
Not some weird chokepoint teammaps
Interesting way to describe the maps people actually play.
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:DD I am also the people
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I am 100-99
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I am 1 people
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actually the most surprising notion here to me is that T3 land formations existed in pre 18 balance in teamgames. the usual thing that happened there was getting full T3 mex into exp only because they wouold build so incredibly quickly. (and there are pds + acus everywhere so what do you even want to do with those T3 units?)
for 1v1s this whole thing is a non issue -
T3 land formations existed if u played UEF. Everything else was T4 spam as a response to the UEF player.
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still unrelated to the monkey vs brick issue :Kappa:
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@moses_the_red
T3 still beats T4 mass for massWhere T4 is better are
- Exploiting veterancy
- Micro capabilities
- Defense from AOE/partial damage
You proved that point 2 can make difference. This is GOOD.
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Someone just please make a balance mod for gap and astro so people can play with all facion hives/ ras SACUS and op t3 land. Nice side effect would be that those games are unranked then.
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@HoujouSatoko said in Points of Imbalance.:
actually the most surprising notion here to me is that T3 land formations existed in pre 18 balance in teamgames. the usual thing that happened there was getting full T3 mex into exp only because they wouold build so incredibly quickly. (and there are pds + acus everywhere so what do you even want to do with those T3 units?)
for 1v1s this whole thing is a non issueThat was their niche, they were sucker punch rush units.
They were built to exploit early timings, or unexpected mass spikes due to reclaim.
They were not able to compete with T3 in terms of mass efficiency though, and so if you could get past the timings, T3 land formations would become effective counters to them.
And given the mass investment you have to put into significant T3 production, that makes sense. You can't just grab all your engies and push out 15 bricks in a minute or two.
That role is what allowed assault experimentals to exist, but not compete with T3 land. T3 land was better if you had the production to make enough of it.
And I'm speaking in general here. There are counterexamples like the Fatboy, but what I'm saying was true in general.
We traded that system for one where Experimentals take longer to build, but have little to no disadvantage in mass efficiency. That is causing Experimentals to replace the role of the T3 land formation.
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im sure everyone building them because they were too lazy to mass T3/early T3 bots (non siege/snipers) being useless after going full T3 eco after building 20 tanks for the entire game makes them an "early timing", and not just a full T1 into full exp spam transition.
more like exp was the main meta and going t3 spam the nieche
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@FtXCommando said in Points of Imbalance.:
T3 land formations existed if u played UEF. Everything else was T4 spam as a response to the UEF player.Not true.
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Thinking more on this, lots of things weren't adjusted at all.
T3 land is also more vulnerable to PD of all kinds, T2 static artillery.
It was an indirect buff to ravagers, shields...
We changed T3 land by a country mile and adjusted nothing else as if nothing else might need adjusting. Its more vulnerable to everything.
I'm watching a replay from May right now between Tagada, Blodir, Nexus and Turbo on Frozen Isis. No one is making T3 units in significant numbers. No one is investing in production.
They literally finish T3 static arty before bothering to build more than 5 T3 assault units.
Its no wonder why. Its weak as hell relative to everything except T2.
It seems that at the pro level, its just not worth making AT ALL unless you have 30 mex points spread across everywhere to defend.
Is that really where we want it? Is this really the best we can do?
Replay for anyone that's interested: https://replay.faforever.com/11847829
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#13058558
Just a general teamgame I found on a decent map that sees usage of all tech levels.
All 4 players you mentioned above are eco and chill dudes playing an eco and chill teamgame on an eco and chill map. Nothing you describes surprises me.
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@FtXCommando said in Points of Imbalance.:
#13058558
Just a general teamgame I found on a decent map that sees usage of all tech levels.
All 4 players you mentioned above are eco and chill dudes playing an eco and chill teamgame on an eco and chill map. Nothing you describes surprises me.
So are you at the point where you're ready to throw Isis into the "Maps we don't want to bother thinking about" category?
Seems like it, I provide you an example of the issue I'm talking about on a very popular relatively well respected team map, and you're linking me an open map as a response.
Is Isis a shit map that the balance team doesn't want to have to address gameplay issues on?
I'm not contesting that they're used on maps where you have to defend 30 mass points spread across all of creation.
