cybran t3 navy
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You can't view the navy in a vacuum. Cybran frigs are op. Was with some guys testing them not too long ago and they're basically 20% better than other frigs in practice while being the cheapest. Buffing the Cybran bs to the level of other bs would make Cybran navy disgustingly strong.
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Battleship nukes aren't especially useful. They're super expensive, the extra price per nuke (4.8k mass) is half the cost of a nuke sub. I guess it's cheaper to shift into making BS nukes, if you already have BS because you used them to win navy, than it is to make nuke subs, and they have more HP than a nuke sub, but are harder to hide.
Cybran in general is thought to have a good navy. And Cybran have HARMS at the T3 stage. If you really hate their navy, you can borrow an engie from a teammate when it's time to make a T2 HQ.
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That was the other thing I was going to mention - sera navy once you have navy won is kind of depressing compared to the other factions. Cybran missile subs with their stealth are awesome. UEF navy has better shore bombardment with their BS. Aeon has better shore bombardment with tempest + missile ships. Both UEF and aeon also have missile subs that I would much rather than the BS nuke.
Edit: Granted, Sera arguably has the best land invasion proxies with zhuthees, chickens, and t3 mobile shields and their cruisers are good.
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@exselsior i know that cybran have the best t1 and even t2 navy (disregarding subs), and i even agree that when a cybran player hasnt won navy by t2 his t3 isnt supposed to be good enougth to make it a difference maker, and buffing the torpedos wont do that. as mentioned the torpedos have about half the range of a bs unless one closes the gap (halfing ur dps in the meantime) they wont even fire on other bs, this change is so they get a gimmick that fits theyre theme, the torpedos rn dont do that, they are negliable, they dont change a single thing about the galaxy, wether they exist in the current state or not at all. also the projectiles of the galaxy are so slow that even ligth micro will cause it to miss half the time.
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@arma473 you can say they arent usefull but you still pay for them on your battleship, it is also a necessary tradeoff for seraphim, since they dont have nukesubs but t3 subhunters so the actual cost of getting nukesubs is getting a t3 hq of another faction for a total of 11,8k mass + 9k for the sub itself. harms are exclusively a defensive tool and rarely if ever impact who wins navi (also most used vs the afromentioned subhunters)
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HARMS generally are not for winning navy, but they are for buying time. They aren't only useful against subs, but can also delay ships.
Depending on the situation, you might buy enough time for your team to make torpedo planes so you can get back into the water. Or you just delay the inevitable invasion on one side of the map. Often in Seton's there is a "race" going on between top and bottom ponds. If one team is winning up top and the other is winning in the bottom, that doesn't mean it's even. If the top team is faster to do shore bombardment (blow up mass extractors) while the bottom team slows things down by making HARMS, the bottom team has a better chance to win the game.
Bottom team gets to keep more mexes, has more eco, and can spend it on different things like nuke launchers or scathis or hover spam. Timing and speed are hugely important in strategy games. It's easy to overlook that if you're only focused on who wins and who loses in a lane.
And it's the same thing for slowing down the land invasion (usually this looks like: the enemy team builds factories on your shore and starts spamming light artillery)
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@arma473 noone of this has anything to do with the proposed change tho
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Wow, the galaxy is nice. Good HP and DPS for the mass cost, end of discussion?
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you didnt factor in micro, proper navy compositions - and in case for cybran stealth, which makes this argument completely worthless, since it has nothing to do with a real game situation - if you make bs only navy, you deserve to lose.
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Yall are forgetting crabs with their torpedoes. In my tests, 1 crab can kill 8 monkeylords underwater engaged at the same time. Well, and monkeys are really hard to detect underwater, and they are great at surprising opponents. Also, bricks underwater are immune to battleship ground fire, and they are fat, and if we compare them with barracudas, their price is almost the same, their torp DPS is 5.5 times lower, but their HP is 5.2 times bigger, and they can switch to land. Also, just a reminder, factories surrounded with T3 and T2 fabs can get up to 86% mass discount (or just T3 fabs: Makes it easier), which makes bricks even stronger (this is what I usually do nowadays when I go land on dual gap: I go billion discounted bricks that help navy if needed).
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@turinturambar what if i never ever build battleships for cybran since the t2 destroyer does everything the battleship does just better, cheaper and sooner ?
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Cybran have either the 2nd worst or the worst destro depending on who you ask.
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it doesnt. it has less range, is easy to dodge, less hp/mass and is an utter disaster to micro. you might want to look at a high level setons to see how cyb T3 navy gameplay can/should look like and why it not terrible as you claim.
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@turinturambar so i did what you told me and watched a bunch of replays (i only watched replays with average rating of 1600+, on setons with a cybran player in one of the navy slots) many including you and when a cybran plays navy one of 3 things happen: 1. they refuse to play navy and commdrop(very succesfully so) 2.they win navy before either player gers a t3 navy hq or 3. they lose navy (exception ofc when its cybran vs cybran navy, where the differencemaker was either income or a second player joining navy or the pond was undecided till end of game, this happened most). next to that, i havent seen a single stealth ship be build. lastly this is results based analysis which i dont like and isnt neccesarily accurate, also cybran navy was suprisingly rare, uef and sera navy was most frequent. id love to see a replay where cybran win a pond at the t3 stage if you have one.
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16274468
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T3/late navy is perfectly balanced rn, every faction has its own strengths and weaknesses, micro is the only relevant factor that decides the outcome.
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@turinturambar you do understand this replay does not prove your point? 1. while this is a 1600+ rating game both players in this pond are 1300 and 1400 respectivly, and that shows 2. thanks to the replays i watched before i know that he missplayed navy, uef dont build theyre bs until they won the pond, they almost exclusively build battlecruisers and spam 3. the pond is a 2 vs 1, by the time hte navy figth actually starts both players in the pond double the eco of the uef player. the top pond even shows my point: pink gets t3 cybran navy and starts building frigates out of it and nothing else, despite having multiple t3 factories and an HQ.
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@lorem_ipsum What are you talking about UEF doesn't build their BS until navy is won? That could not be more incorrect, battlecruisers do not replace battleships except in specific situations. One being that you're vs a cybran player who's only making frigs, and even then it's not a replacement as they fill different roles.
And yes, you build a lot of frigs as any faction on navy, it's absolutely correct to build frigs from multiple t3 factories and if you're not doing that you're not playing it correctly regardless of the faction. Especially if you're playing cybran, frigs are 100% a big part of their t3 navy strength, it's just how navy balance works and is different from air and land balance.
Edit: Different as in on land you don't build t1 tanks at the t3 stage, and on air you don't build inties when there are asf out. Obviously this isn't a hard and fast rule and there are probably exceptions, but never to the extent that frigs are used late game.
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He speaks the truth, turin gave the dumbest replay possible to prove t3 cybran's navy worth
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I might have a good replay or two but won't be able to check until later
