Emerald Craters
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Well, that is actually a good point, I can only guess such an open and empty map means a high degree of sim-city planning.
I would love to see if high tier players would do interesting stuff in this map (T3 rush? Comebacks and trading bases? T1-T2 blobs of armies here and there?)
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Well I found a few ~1700 rated replays. A couple of drops to the far corner, some air play, but not really very interesting games to watch.
Players are forced to leave the starting base after 2-3 factories due to lack of reclaim/mass and there are only really two spots worth going to; failure to get one expansion is almost always game-losing despite so many mexes around the map.
The 8 middle mexes are potentially useful but easy to raid and to spread out to fortify.
Even the corner mexes are far enough apart that tanks sent to the middle of the clump are out of range.
My thoughts on a better version:
- make it a bit smaller, e.g. 15x15
- mexes in expansions should be a bit closer together to make defence with a PD easier
- add some mass reclaim
- maybe reduce the mex count slightly
Ultimately I don't think maps with four-fold symmetry are great for 1v1 or 2v2, personally. Some asymmetry makes choices about where to send the ACU meaningful instead of just 50% chance of meeting the opponent.
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emerald is an amazing map, since its resource scarcity keeps the game very raid heavy with slow tech and eco scaling, opposed to the average macro 20x20, which is just full airspam+eco tech into whatever.
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Still better than 5x5, but yea it's real bad
- expansion distribution is unclear --> situations where both players transport the same expansion and the game is over in 5 minutes emerge
- mex distance is extremely large --> coinflippy transport gameplay emerges where one bomber or inty can end the game. Also expanding engineers are insanely valuable so bombers and labs also have a chance of immediately ending the game
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I don’t like it but lots of higher level ladder likes the map and it’s generally considered a decent introduction map to 20x20s since you can still just do a generic 10x10 spam bo and do well enough.
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But if high level players like this map, do it just for 2000+ players. All noobs as me hates this.
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The ladder team was polling the community about which ladder maps they liked/didn't like. I don't remember the last time that was done. But that is probably the best way to find out what the community thinks. A forum discussion is never going to accurately capture the community's sentiment towards particular maps.
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Problem is that by the end of it I was getting like 8-10 participants so it wasn’t worth the hours to set up the poll and collect/curate the data.
Never posted the stuff on this forums so I might as well as transfer it, though:
THIS IS FROM AUGUST 2019:
How to Read:
Map: Total Votes/Aggregate Player Rating Matchmaker Team Rating (Difference)
Abhor..................................48/3.42 (3.7) (.28)
Arctic Refuge.................103/2.94 (2.55) (-.39)
Averus.................................111/2.99 (2.875) (-.115)
Better Isis..........................110/3.13 (2.95) (-.18)
Blasted Rock...................52/3.37 (2.25) (-1.12)
Broken Vows...................50/3.2 (3.5) (.3)
Burial Mounds...............112/2.71 (1) (-1.71)
Cadmium Green........145/3.36 (3.55) (.19)
Canis River......................54/3.37 (2.7) (-.67)
Chiron.................................44/2.55 (3.6) (1.05)
Cobalt Valley.................223/3.62 (4) (.38)
Coldfire Canal...............51/2.82 (4) (1.18)
corporation_small.....106/3.19 (2.225) (-.965)
Crossfire Canal.............67/3.12 (4.425) (1.305)
Darkfall...............................46/3.26 (3.25) (-.01)
Daroza’s Sanctuary...45/2.38 (3.7) (1.32)
desert arena...................53/3.38 (3.3) (-.08)
Desert Joust....................52/3.21 (2.8) (-.41)
Dirty_Mounds................100/3.32 (3.175) (-.145)
Diversity.............................51/3.47 (3.25) (-.22)
Dragons River 1v1.........163/2.98 (2.15) (-.83)
Dry Canyon......................53/3.26 (2.075) (-1.185)
Durfair Isles.......................104/2.85 (2.475) (-.375)
Emerald Crater...............175/2.74 (3.55) (.81)
Esgaroth’s Ruins............227/3.38 (3.55) (.17)
Eridani..................................119/3.34 (2.3) (-1.04)
Eye of the Storm............191/3.56 (4) (.44)
Fancylands.......................230/3.66 (3.85) (.19)
Farce.....................................118/3.62 (3.425) (-.195)
Festea...................................41/2.73 (3.475) (.745)
Fields of Isis.......................57/3.07 (3.7) (.63)
Fields of Thunder..........46/3.28 (2.7) (-.58)
Finn’s.....................................52/3.08 (3.1) (.02)
Firelight...............................163/2.92 (3.15) (.23)
Forbidden Pass..............45/3.64 (4.25) (.61)
Four Leaf Clover.............56/3.39 (2.775) (-.615)
High Noon...........................59/2.8 (3.25) (.45)
hollow...................................93/3.3 (3.7) (.4)
Jagged Subsidence...143/2.82 (3.2) (.38)
Krossfire..............................106/3.19 (3.6) (.41)
Last Oasis..........................55/3.2 (3.625) (.425)
Loki.........................................177/3.94 (4.05) (.09)
Monaki................................47/3.11 (3.3) (.19)
Moonshine.......................98/2.4 (2.4) (0)
Nilfheim..............................95/3.54 (3.625) (.085)
Norfair.................................97/2.35 (2.825) (.475)
Ocil Wetlands................44/3.11 (2.55) (-.56)
Open Palms....................238/3.88 (4.025) (.145)
Osiris....................................149/3.16 (3.4) (.24)
Pelagial.............................53/3.19 (2.55) (-.64)
Point of Reach..............47/3.55 (3.55) (0)
Red Rocks........................52/3.15 (3.7) (.55)
Regor...................................52/3.96 (3.525) (-.435)
Roanoke...........................53/3.25 (3.175) (-.075)
salembay.........................41/2.71 (3.05) (.34)
Saltrock Colony............53/3.55 (2.95) (-.6)
Seraphim Glaciers.....113/2.94 (3) (.06)
Seraphim Outpost......46/3.37 (3.125) (-.245)
Seton’s................................115/2.63 (4.075) (1.445)
Snoey Triangle..............46/2.52 (1.525) (-.995)
Stella Maris WM...........50/2.94 (2.4) (-.54)
Strife of Titan.................83/2.59 (3.05) (.46)
Summer Duel................54/3.07 (1.95) (-1.12)
Syrtis Major....................215/3.64 (3.775) (.135)
TAG_Craftious.............224/3.66 (4.375) (.715)
Theta Passage.............177/3.58 (3.7) (.12)
Theta Passage 5.........110/3.48 (2.75) (-.73)
Bermuda Locket..........56/3.16 (2.95) (-.21)
The Ditch..........................54/2.59 (3.2) (.61)
Ganges Chasma........96/3.2 (3.825) (.625)
Land wilderness..........45/3.27 (3.7) (.43)
Twin Rivers......................111/4.12 (3.55) (-.57)
Vale of Isis.......................109/3.15 (2.55) (-.6)
Varga Pass......................42/2.33 (2.925) (.525)
Viridium.............................93/3.07 (2.95) (-.12)
Vulcan’s Reach............49/3.08 (3.25) (.17)
Vya-3..................................126/3.45 (3.3) (-.15)
White Fire v2...................54/3.26 (3) (-.26)
Williamson’s Bridge..218/3.05 (3.75) (.7)
x6 1v1....................................96/2.78 (3) (.28)
Z-D Rasty Lite................49/3.02 (3.625) (.605)Highest: Twins (4.12)
Lowest: Varga (2.33)Highest 5: Cobalt (3.62)
Lowest 5: Moonshine (2.4)Highest 10: Twins (4.12)
Lowest 10: Varga (2.33)Highest 20: Point of Reach (3.55)
Lowest 20: Norfair (2.35) -
Gonna make the formatting a bit better since this forum is really annoying about extra spaces.
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You can use markdown tables
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Emerald is a good map because you actually need to think about how to invest your mass, especially in terms of what areas of the map to hold and fortify, acu position is important and air vs land are both totally viable choices with parity for long periods of time. It’s a nice map without clear cut winning strategies like land spam, much better than Open palms or twin river lose one expansioneer lose game garbage style first 5min game plan maps.
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I used to hate emerald, too, but there is quite a bit of skill to build by learning the map as good scouting (eg, knowing enemy ACU position) can win games over anything. There is no map like it within the pools and makes you think outside the box.
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Perhaps there should be more map-making for such "open" maps, then. Emerald Craters is almost uniquely bland (Seraphim Glaciers too).
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Feel free to make one whenever you want, you could probably make a relatively flat 10km map with no major natural expansions and get a solid run of it.
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Farms made a map like emerald crater. It was in ladder too, a map without any reclaim to click, extremely refreshing.
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the design was much worse tho, it didn't promote a lot of raiding and was choky.
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That was his first map, which was really not that bad for a new mapper. Regardless, I don't know why mappers should make maps "like others" because it is usually more effective to try and make something unique. There are legit like 200+ options for ladder pool and you get really similar gameplay / mechanics in many. I don't see why we should aim to add to that list.
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His first map was Eridani, which was mega tree reclaim heavy. He recently updated it to remove the tree reclaim. The "Emerald Crater" like map is Havasu Canyon, but that map still has decent reclaim it just doesn't show up since desert rocks are 7 mass and the reclaim overlay only goes down to 10.
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Well, I have a few ideas for an "improved Emerald Craters". Not sure whether I'll get to them (it's been ~20 years since I did any map-making, for TA), so if another map-maker is inspired, go ahead.
First, gameplay:
- the main bases/expansions seem to work well forcing rapid drop/acu movement to take at least one
- lack of reclaim in the starting area is, as you all say, refreshing
- I personally don't like the way the centre or closer three-mex expansions play so much; the corners are "okay"
So, ideas:
- Keep the starting bases similar, but redesign a little. They are oases in an arid landscape, so they should be lower than the surrounding terrain, with a thin spread of trees. Perhaps push the hydro spot to the centre with 2-3 mexes and put the other mexes around the edge, keeping 6 total.
- Not sure whether the expansions should be identical oases or smaller (maybe only 4 mexes).
- Redo the centre completely. Either a central peak (mountain) or a lake in the crater's depression, or perhaps a flooded quarry. Have two 3-mex expansions, one towards each player, with terrain enabling easier defence. Have a few larger reclaimables, perhaps civ structures. This should make it feasible to drop both central expansions instead of the side expansions (but should not be too attractive, so not mega reclaim).
- Spread out the remaining mexes a bit. Possibly have a creek starting in each corner, with shallow parts and some mini-canyons, with mexes along the creek. Maybe similar mex count (5-6) spread along this creek. Have a few rocks and trees along the creek. Or maybe stick with the 3-mex+hydro expansions from Emerald plus a couple of mexes spread out within the crater.
This is mostly intended to offer similar gameplay except for the central area and more, smaller raiding targets between the main expansions.
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@white_owl said in Emerald Craters:
But if high level players like this map, do it just for 2000+ players. All noobs as me hates this.
I am not 2000+ and I like it. I don’t want to see this map removed from the pool I play.
By “noob” what do you mean ? Is that 0 to 900 rating, 0 to 1800? Saying only use 2000+ is more like saying that only the top 25 players ( of which most are inactive ) should see it in ladder.
